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	<title>Comments on: Two Views of the United Auto Workers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/</link>
	<description>I&#039;m a force by myself but we&#039;re a movement when we&#039;re together</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:08:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Krisna</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-685</link>
		<dc:creator>Krisna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-685</guid>
		<description>Looks like the old link is broken.  Here&#039;s a functioning one:

http://libcom.org/library/operaismo-autonomist-marxism-aufheben-11</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the old link is broken.  Here&#8217;s a functioning one:</p>
<p><a href="http://libcom.org/library/operaismo-autonomist-marxism-aufheben-11" rel="nofollow">http://libcom.org/library/operaismo-autonomist-marxism-aufheben-11</a></p>
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		<title>By: Krisna</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-684</link>
		<dc:creator>Krisna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-684</guid>
		<description>Nick,

Thanks for sharing that.  I&#039;ll be looking over it soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing that.  I&#8217;ll be looking over it soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Paretsky</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Paretsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-683</guid>
		<description>Aufheben has what I think is a good critique of Cleaver (and Negri), as well as a useful overview of the history of workerist theory, which includes an analysis of the subjectivism vs. economic determinism problem raised by Krisna above (#11, 2003, ‘From Operaismo to “Autonomist Marxism,”’
(http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_11_operaismo.html).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aufheben has what I think is a good critique of Cleaver (and Negri), as well as a useful overview of the history of workerist theory, which includes an analysis of the subjectivism vs. economic determinism problem raised by Krisna above (#11, 2003, ‘From Operaismo to “Autonomist Marxism,”’<br />
(<a href="http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_11_operaismo.html)." rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_11_operaismo.html).</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mamos</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>Mamos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-644</guid>
		<description>Hi Don,
   Unity in Struggle members in general take an approach that is more critical of union reform caucusing and is more focused in building independent rank and file workplace organizations, along the lines of what you laid out in your STO pice &quot;Trade Unions and Independent Organizations&quot;.  Myself, Jomo, Gila, Bao, CG, and other readers/ writers around Gathering Forces are involved in these efforts in Seattle.  Some of us are building a rank and file worker and student organization to fight budget cuts/ privatization of the University of Washington.  It&#039;s called International Workers and Students for Justice.  As I lay out above, we are open to workers who want to focus on union reform but we actively seek out rank and file militants who want to go a lot farther than that and we try as much as possible to focus on fighting management through direct action. 

I would say that union reform work not only leads to defeat but it is also a PRODUCT of defeat as you suggest in Trade Unions and Independent Organizations.   We have seen at times of rank and file mobilization people are willing to move without the union backing the action.  But at moments when the rank and file is not as confident because of management and police retaliation then people cling to the union bureaucracy for support and then want to  try and reform it if it doesn&#039;t offer that support. 

Thanks for the links... I&#039;ll have to check those out when I get a chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Don,<br />
   Unity in Struggle members in general take an approach that is more critical of union reform caucusing and is more focused in building independent rank and file workplace organizations, along the lines of what you laid out in your STO pice &#8220;Trade Unions and Independent Organizations&#8221;.  Myself, Jomo, Gila, Bao, CG, and other readers/ writers around Gathering Forces are involved in these efforts in Seattle.  Some of us are building a rank and file worker and student organization to fight budget cuts/ privatization of the University of Washington.  It&#8217;s called International Workers and Students for Justice.  As I lay out above, we are open to workers who want to focus on union reform but we actively seek out rank and file militants who want to go a lot farther than that and we try as much as possible to focus on fighting management through direct action. </p>
<p>I would say that union reform work not only leads to defeat but it is also a PRODUCT of defeat as you suggest in Trade Unions and Independent Organizations.   We have seen at times of rank and file mobilization people are willing to move without the union backing the action.  But at moments when the rank and file is not as confident because of management and police retaliation then people cling to the union bureaucracy for support and then want to  try and reform it if it doesn&#8217;t offer that support. </p>
<p>Thanks for the links&#8230; I&#8217;ll have to check those out when I get a chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hamerquist</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-631</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hamerquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-631</guid>
		<description>Our attitude

	The initial subject of this discussion is an emerging potential for working class resistance to a prolonged experience of class accommodations that uniformly have turned out to be defeats. One strand, thankfully it appears to be a minority, suggests that this should be channeled into union reform where unions currently exist and implies support for parallel approaches to organizing where they don’t. But that approach rests on little more than the very partial and limited truth that activated workers, “...will first look to the union.” It ignores that there have been hundreds of such union reform and revitalization efforts over many decades just in this country without any example - specifically including the TDU experience – that might reasonably be called a strategic success. While some leftists may be unaware of this reality, it will hardly be news for autoworkers. 
	These union reform politics fit comfortably within a social democratic perspective preoccupied with incremental “successes”. Unfortunately, they also have a foothold among radicals and revolutionaries. For a case in point, read the last paragraph in Shawn Hattingh’s otherwise excellent description of the current wildcat mine occupations in S. Africa. (ZNet, 2/3/10). 
	For a very good treatment of the underlying political issues from an anarcho-syndicalist perspective, I’d recommend the 2009 paper, “Strategy &amp; Struggle” by the Brighton Solidarity Federation.

	Don Hamerquist</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our attitude</p>
<p>	The initial subject of this discussion is an emerging potential for working class resistance to a prolonged experience of class accommodations that uniformly have turned out to be defeats. One strand, thankfully it appears to be a minority, suggests that this should be channeled into union reform where unions currently exist and implies support for parallel approaches to organizing where they don’t. But that approach rests on little more than the very partial and limited truth that activated workers, “&#8230;will first look to the union.” It ignores that there have been hundreds of such union reform and revitalization efforts over many decades just in this country without any example &#8211; specifically including the TDU experience – that might reasonably be called a strategic success. While some leftists may be unaware of this reality, it will hardly be news for autoworkers.<br />
	These union reform politics fit comfortably within a social democratic perspective preoccupied with incremental “successes”. Unfortunately, they also have a foothold among radicals and revolutionaries. For a case in point, read the last paragraph in Shawn Hattingh’s otherwise excellent description of the current wildcat mine occupations in S. Africa. (ZNet, 2/3/10).<br />
	For a very good treatment of the underlying political issues from an anarcho-syndicalist perspective, I’d recommend the 2009 paper, “Strategy &amp; Struggle” by the Brighton Solidarity Federation.</p>
<p>	Don Hamerquist</p>
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		<title>By: Jamusa</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-625</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamusa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 05:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-625</guid>
		<description>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/30/BAHK1BQ7N6.DTL&amp;tsp=1

Follow-up to NUMMI plant closure and struggles by rank-and-file to hold their local UAW to task for drawing out negotiations for final payouts after the plant closes in April.  In organizing the March 4th actions, folks are trying to link with these workers.  I guess NUMMI workers were called to a last minute union meeting today, so as we see with many union democracy is at a premium.  It&#039;s tough thought b/c many left organizers are trying to jump on the ship of solidarity with these workers.  That&#039;s great, but it&#039;s tough though b/c just now they&#039;re coming on long after the plant decided to close instead of when the announcement was first made.  And it seems the UAW is not very critical of GM which ditched NUMMI with two weeks notice.  This is in part b/c UAW now owns a large stake in GM.  Talk about business unionism!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/30/BAHK1BQ7N6.DTL&amp;tsp=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/30/BAHK1BQ7N6.DTL&amp;tsp=1</a></p>
<p>Follow-up to NUMMI plant closure and struggles by rank-and-file to hold their local UAW to task for drawing out negotiations for final payouts after the plant closes in April.  In organizing the March 4th actions, folks are trying to link with these workers.  I guess NUMMI workers were called to a last minute union meeting today, so as we see with many union democracy is at a premium.  It&#8217;s tough thought b/c many left organizers are trying to jump on the ship of solidarity with these workers.  That&#8217;s great, but it&#8217;s tough though b/c just now they&#8217;re coming on long after the plant decided to close instead of when the announcement was first made.  And it seems the UAW is not very critical of GM which ditched NUMMI with two weeks notice.  This is in part b/c UAW now owns a large stake in GM.  Talk about business unionism!</p>
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		<title>By: Mamos</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-603</link>
		<dc:creator>Mamos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-603</guid>
		<description>Charlie, I agree to some extent that at this stage some unionized workers are still  looking to unions to fight back.  We are seeing this among state workers we are organizing with at University of Washington and I&#039;m also seeing it in my own industry, education.   This is not necessarily because people have &quot;illusions&quot; or false consciousness.  It is because we do not yet feel our strength and don&#039;t yet have the confidence to take mass independent rank and file action across the breath of large sections of the class.   Locally there have been moments of rank and file upsurge and confidence but it hasn&#039;t lasted or congealed yet into something bigger. 

So in the absence of alternatives folks still lean on the grievance procedure, shop stewards, etc.  even though they generally know that these mechanisms are broken and management and the union bureaucrats don&#039;t really take them seriously.  We are seeing a unionized workplace in which management acts as if the union didn&#039;t exist. 

I would say that for this reason the majority of workers aren&#039;t supportive of the union because it is profoundly broken .  Many don&#039;t go to union meetings because they are highly alienating, and perceived as a waste of time.   Also, some union officials play ethnic patronage and divide and conquer, and the most oppressed layers of immigrant workers are often excluded from power in the union. 

  But despite this reality, most workers  are  also not yet excited about building alternative formations.   When a minority of workers do build an alternative that shows it can win my sense is that many of these workers will rally around it. 

So this brings us to the strategic question of what should revolutionaries be doing in our workplaces?  Charlie Post seem to be suggesting orienting toward union reform, working within the unions to change them.  But recognizing that many workers are still tied to the unions does not necessarily mean that our main work should be orienting to union meetings, caucusing, etc.  In other words, I agree with Charlie Post&#039;s diagnosis (to some degree) but not with his solution.   Instead of that solution my comrades and I are trying to build up  independent rank and file organization like International Workers and Students for Justice here in Seattle.  We don&#039;t attack or dis the union because most workers  still feel the need for it.   We are not left sectarians or dual unionists.  But instead of union reform work we organize with militant rank and file workers - BOTH the workers who wish to reform the union AND the workers who are so pissed off with the union that they don&#039;t see the point of going to meetings or trying to reform it.   IWSJ aims to bring both of these groups together to fight management, whether the union wants to support this fight or not. 

This may lead to union reform - we hope it does - but as several folks on this thread have suggested, only advancing the class struggle will actually reform the unions.  OR  it will possibly create healthier and more militant unions to replace them - the jury is out on that.  But if we call ourselves revolutionaries our struggle needs to go beyond either reforming or  replacing the unions -  we need to build rank and file power and organization, through the course of various transitional struggles, constantly asserting greater and greater attempts to control production itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie, I agree to some extent that at this stage some unionized workers are still  looking to unions to fight back.  We are seeing this among state workers we are organizing with at University of Washington and I&#8217;m also seeing it in my own industry, education.   This is not necessarily because people have &#8220;illusions&#8221; or false consciousness.  It is because we do not yet feel our strength and don&#8217;t yet have the confidence to take mass independent rank and file action across the breath of large sections of the class.   Locally there have been moments of rank and file upsurge and confidence but it hasn&#8217;t lasted or congealed yet into something bigger. </p>
<p>So in the absence of alternatives folks still lean on the grievance procedure, shop stewards, etc.  even though they generally know that these mechanisms are broken and management and the union bureaucrats don&#8217;t really take them seriously.  We are seeing a unionized workplace in which management acts as if the union didn&#8217;t exist. </p>
<p>I would say that for this reason the majority of workers aren&#8217;t supportive of the union because it is profoundly broken .  Many don&#8217;t go to union meetings because they are highly alienating, and perceived as a waste of time.   Also, some union officials play ethnic patronage and divide and conquer, and the most oppressed layers of immigrant workers are often excluded from power in the union. </p>
<p>  But despite this reality, most workers  are  also not yet excited about building alternative formations.   When a minority of workers do build an alternative that shows it can win my sense is that many of these workers will rally around it. </p>
<p>So this brings us to the strategic question of what should revolutionaries be doing in our workplaces?  Charlie Post seem to be suggesting orienting toward union reform, working within the unions to change them.  But recognizing that many workers are still tied to the unions does not necessarily mean that our main work should be orienting to union meetings, caucusing, etc.  In other words, I agree with Charlie Post&#8217;s diagnosis (to some degree) but not with his solution.   Instead of that solution my comrades and I are trying to build up  independent rank and file organization like International Workers and Students for Justice here in Seattle.  We don&#8217;t attack or dis the union because most workers  still feel the need for it.   We are not left sectarians or dual unionists.  But instead of union reform work we organize with militant rank and file workers &#8211; BOTH the workers who wish to reform the union AND the workers who are so pissed off with the union that they don&#8217;t see the point of going to meetings or trying to reform it.   IWSJ aims to bring both of these groups together to fight management, whether the union wants to support this fight or not. </p>
<p>This may lead to union reform &#8211; we hope it does &#8211; but as several folks on this thread have suggested, only advancing the class struggle will actually reform the unions.  OR  it will possibly create healthier and more militant unions to replace them &#8211; the jury is out on that.  But if we call ourselves revolutionaries our struggle needs to go beyond either reforming or  replacing the unions &#8211;  we need to build rank and file power and organization, through the course of various transitional struggles, constantly asserting greater and greater attempts to control production itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Krisna</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>Krisna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-602</guid>
		<description>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/26/BU441BNBR8.DTL

Those fuckin bastard officials even called the cops and tried to say the hecklers were put there by management.  Right...  and the League of Revolutionary Black Workers were a management front as well....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/26/BU441BNBR8.DTL" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/26/BU441BNBR8.DTL</a></p>
<p>Those fuckin bastard officials even called the cops and tried to say the hecklers were put there by management.  Right&#8230;  and the League of Revolutionary Black Workers were a management front as well&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Krisna</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Krisna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-601</guid>
		<description>Looks like these workers won&#039;t be looking to the UAW for jack shit.  Holy shit, man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like these workers won&#8217;t be looking to the UAW for jack shit.  Holy shit, man.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamusa</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamusa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-600</guid>
		<description>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/gettowork/detail?entry_id=56033

Living out here in the Bay Area, the only auto plant in the area (and maybe in Cali) NUMMI is closing this Spring.  1,000s of workers are being laid off, a good number are people of color.  Manufacturing jobs like this are harder to come by in the Bay Area, and their descent wages are not found in the service industry, where many laid off NUMMI workers will likely find jobs...if they find any at all.

Above is a link to a UAW meeting of these laid off NUMMI workers, showing two views from the rank and file and from the &quot;leadership&quot; table of rank and file yelling at their misleaders in UAW for showing little to no fight.  Notice how this is too much for the union bureaucrat who lashes out at the rank and file...as he himself is to be laid off.  If this is not a microcosm of the state of organized labor and specifically that in auto I don&#039;t know what is.  A sad state of affairs!

What we need is a radical reorientation by rank and file workers drawing off the histories of struggles as noted by posts by Will and other above, like the LRBW, writings of Stan Weir and Marty Glaberman, and Selma James showing workers self-activity and creating groups and structures to defends workers that are outside the union bureaucrats seeking to keep the peace.  As you can see from the video, it&#039;s hard to keep the peace when the ship is sinking.  It&#039;s clear though the SF Chronicle, a conservative paper, is out to air the dirty laundry of organized labor...and the comments show that.  But what rank and file organizing that was done (I&#039;m sure there was some but not aware of all the organizing at NUMMI) is expressed as anger and frustration at the union bureaucracy and each other.

As job and public infrastructure are under wholesale attack in CA, hopefully fightbacks on campuses, schools, workplaces and neighborhoods like the convergences planned for March 4th are a start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/gettowork/detail?entry_id=56033" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/gettowork/detail?entry_id=56033</a></p>
<p>Living out here in the Bay Area, the only auto plant in the area (and maybe in Cali) NUMMI is closing this Spring.  1,000s of workers are being laid off, a good number are people of color.  Manufacturing jobs like this are harder to come by in the Bay Area, and their descent wages are not found in the service industry, where many laid off NUMMI workers will likely find jobs&#8230;if they find any at all.</p>
<p>Above is a link to a UAW meeting of these laid off NUMMI workers, showing two views from the rank and file and from the &#8220;leadership&#8221; table of rank and file yelling at their misleaders in UAW for showing little to no fight.  Notice how this is too much for the union bureaucrat who lashes out at the rank and file&#8230;as he himself is to be laid off.  If this is not a microcosm of the state of organized labor and specifically that in auto I don&#8217;t know what is.  A sad state of affairs!</p>
<p>What we need is a radical reorientation by rank and file workers drawing off the histories of struggles as noted by posts by Will and other above, like the LRBW, writings of Stan Weir and Marty Glaberman, and Selma James showing workers self-activity and creating groups and structures to defends workers that are outside the union bureaucrats seeking to keep the peace.  As you can see from the video, it&#8217;s hard to keep the peace when the ship is sinking.  It&#8217;s clear though the SF Chronicle, a conservative paper, is out to air the dirty laundry of organized labor&#8230;and the comments show that.  But what rank and file organizing that was done (I&#8217;m sure there was some but not aware of all the organizing at NUMMI) is expressed as anger and frustration at the union bureaucracy and each other.</p>
<p>As job and public infrastructure are under wholesale attack in CA, hopefully fightbacks on campuses, schools, workplaces and neighborhoods like the convergences planned for March 4th are a start.</p>
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		<title>By: Krisna</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Krisna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-599</guid>
		<description>Hey ex-kapd, Charlie,

This will be brief so if any of it is unclear, I&#039;ll be happy to expound.

I agree very much with ex-kapd&#039;s caveat on the falling rate of profit.  Harry Cleaver does a very exceptional job in his Introduction to Reading Capital Politically to place primacy on the self-activity of the working class in compelling a reorganization of capital toward induction of labor-saving technology, the turn to financialization, etc.  If the working class didn&#039;t fight back, create its own forms of struggle (beyond the sanctions of the union, though the rise of unions are partly to be explained by such resistance), and in general act as a fetter on the absolute sway of capital, Detroit would still be Motor City.

I feel the trouble with Cleaver is he seems to have a tendency towards subjectivism and that the self-activity of the working class determines everything.  I don&#039;t think he tried hard enough to account for some of the things Kim Moody introduces into the subject of, e.g. labor saving technology and what have you.   But the struggles of the working class have to be seen as being objectified into the new class relations, production techniques, neoliberalism, etc. something I don&#039;t think Moody considered.  When the capitalists introduce new technology they are factoring in whatever brakes the working class have put on their ability to create more surplus value leading to profit.

Moody nor Cleaver it seems can be taken independently.  We need a synthesis of the two so that we don&#039;t fall into either subjectivism or economic determinism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey ex-kapd, Charlie,</p>
<p>This will be brief so if any of it is unclear, I&#8217;ll be happy to expound.</p>
<p>I agree very much with ex-kapd&#8217;s caveat on the falling rate of profit.  Harry Cleaver does a very exceptional job in his Introduction to Reading Capital Politically to place primacy on the self-activity of the working class in compelling a reorganization of capital toward induction of labor-saving technology, the turn to financialization, etc.  If the working class didn&#8217;t fight back, create its own forms of struggle (beyond the sanctions of the union, though the rise of unions are partly to be explained by such resistance), and in general act as a fetter on the absolute sway of capital, Detroit would still be Motor City.</p>
<p>I feel the trouble with Cleaver is he seems to have a tendency towards subjectivism and that the self-activity of the working class determines everything.  I don&#8217;t think he tried hard enough to account for some of the things Kim Moody introduces into the subject of, e.g. labor saving technology and what have you.   But the struggles of the working class have to be seen as being objectified into the new class relations, production techniques, neoliberalism, etc. something I don&#8217;t think Moody considered.  When the capitalists introduce new technology they are factoring in whatever brakes the working class have put on their ability to create more surplus value leading to profit.</p>
<p>Moody nor Cleaver it seems can be taken independently.  We need a synthesis of the two so that we don&#8217;t fall into either subjectivism or economic determinism.</p>
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		<title>By: ex-kapd</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-597</link>
		<dc:creator>ex-kapd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-597</guid>
		<description>&quot;Even though the unions are much, much weaker than in the 1960s/1970s, workers looking to fight their boss usually first look to the existing unions as that instrument…&quot;.
maybe so, but much of the working class also looks towards electoral politics as a means of improving conditions.
the question at hand is if the role of the revolutionary minority is to reinforce these hegemonic attitudes or attack them not only verbally but in practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even though the unions are much, much weaker than in the 1960s/1970s, workers looking to fight their boss usually first look to the existing unions as that instrument…&#8221;.<br />
maybe so, but much of the working class also looks towards electoral politics as a means of improving conditions.<br />
the question at hand is if the role of the revolutionary minority is to reinforce these hegemonic attitudes or attack them not only verbally but in practice.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Post</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-596</guid>
		<description>The decline of profitability in the mid 60s and today is rooted in the increasing mechanization of production-- not the changing relationship of class forces (http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/The%20current%20economic%20crisis.pdf;]

Even though the unions are much, much weaker than in the 1960s/1970s, workers looking to fight their boss usually first look to the existing unions as that instrument...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decline of profitability in the mid 60s and today is rooted in the increasing mechanization of production&#8211; not the changing relationship of class forces (<a href="http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/The%20current%20economic%20crisis.pdf;" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/The%20current%20economic%20crisis.pdf;</a></p>
<p>Even though the unions are much, much weaker than in the 1960s/1970s, workers looking to fight their boss usually first look to the existing unions as that instrument&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ex-kapd</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2010/01/21/two-views-of-the-united-auto-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator>ex-kapd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=1134#comment-595</guid>
		<description>a few thoughts.
&quot;However in the late 1960s/ early 70s capitalism entered a period of declining rate of profit which made this compromise untenable.&quot;
Is this a result of an &quot;objective&quot; decline in the rate of profit, or an expression on the economic plane of a change in the political relations of force between capital and the proletariat at that time ( development of independent mass struggles in the metropole, the anti-colonial movements etc), which entailed a capitalist counter attack as a necessity for the ruling class?
also considering the low rate of unionization especially in the United states, it seems that to some extent material conditions have made this debate a great deal less relevant then it may have been for say the early third international trying to relate to the huge social democrat structures in west europe.
perhaps its more important now to pose the question of how to organize independent working class resistance structures of the non-unionized majority?
not posing this question in an &quot;either/or&quot; sense of course....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a few thoughts.<br />
&#8220;However in the late 1960s/ early 70s capitalism entered a period of declining rate of profit which made this compromise untenable.&#8221;<br />
Is this a result of an &#8220;objective&#8221; decline in the rate of profit, or an expression on the economic plane of a change in the political relations of force between capital and the proletariat at that time ( development of independent mass struggles in the metropole, the anti-colonial movements etc), which entailed a capitalist counter attack as a necessity for the ruling class?<br />
also considering the low rate of unionization especially in the United states, it seems that to some extent material conditions have made this debate a great deal less relevant then it may have been for say the early third international trying to relate to the huge social democrat structures in west europe.<br />
perhaps its more important now to pose the question of how to organize independent working class resistance structures of the non-unionized majority?<br />
not posing this question in an &#8220;either/or&#8221; sense of course&#8230;.</p>
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