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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on a Health Care Forum</title>
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	<description>I&#039;m a force by myself but we&#039;re a movement when we&#039;re together</description>
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		<title>By: Felayevelty</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2009/09/21/thoughts-on-a-health-care-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-1116</link>
		<dc:creator>Felayevelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 20:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=460#comment-1116</guid>
		<description>I am glad to be a member right here and look forward to talking to you all and sharing some of my hobbies which include things like woodworking and designing plans for woodworking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad to be a member right here and look forward to talking to you all and sharing some of my hobbies which include things like woodworking and designing plans for woodworking.</p>
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		<title>By: kertil</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2009/09/21/thoughts-on-a-health-care-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-928</link>
		<dc:creator>kertil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 13:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=460#comment-928</guid>
		<description>Предлагаю рассылки рекламы:
- на форумы 20$ на 30000 форумов
- регистрация в белых каталогах сайтов 10$ на 6000 каталогах
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E-mail: for534@i.ua</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Предлагаю рассылки рекламы:<br />
- на форумы 20$ на 30000 форумов<br />
- регистрация в белых каталогах сайтов 10$ на 6000 каталогах<br />
- на доски бесплатных объявлений интернета 15$ на 20000 досок<br />
- ручная рассылка рекламы 0.2$ за регистрацию<br />
минимальный заказ 100 регистраций, сбор сайтов входит в стоимость.<br />
- сбор баз любых сайтов<br />
- изготовление сайтов</p>
<p>E-mail: <a href="mailto:for534@i.ua">for534@i.ua</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2009/09/21/thoughts-on-a-health-care-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=460#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Great post and comments.  

1. I also see the continued polarization of the country along left and right axis. Although Obama is putting a cover on the left dimensions of the polarization, all cannot be blamed on him either. The reality is, as others have pointed out, some responsibility has to be placed at the left&#039;s door. Regardless, continued polarization is possible given continued economic crisis or political crisis along the Afghanistan or Iraq war lines.  Things might look radically different in terms of the point I am raising if any one or several of these problems for the rulers are resolved.

2. Polarization poses opportunities for the revolutionary left and immense dangers.  The dangers are the beginnings of these rallies. For now, I think they can be categorized as the right intimidating progressive forces and the left. I believe they have done an effective job with the help of Obama. The latter is a reference to millions of people giving Obama a chance during his presidency. 

While the right controls much of the university, government, and education space; I do believe it has less control in an organized and political sense on the ground. I understand this to mean that the country is not going to the right or left. It is up for grabs right now. With the right (in Republican or Democrat form) in governmental power, they are responsible for failings of the economy, war in Afghanistan etc which also lends to anti-State possibilities.  Unfortunately, the right has taken up this fight as well leaving me to wonder if Anarchists or left-libertarians will pose alternative to state-led healthcare or free-market healthcare at these protests and try to enter local or regional level debates.

For the revolutionary left, polarization is a symptom of immense crisis where the possibility of mild reforms solving the problems of the day are less and less likely. Instead, reforms which must be fought for at the street, workplace, and our communities become a reality. The interaction of struggle, revolutionary politics, and winning reforms opens up the chance to radical politics, new types of organizations etc which can challenge the old ways of doing politics. These moments do not come often in history.

This still leaves the question of the precise or concrete relationship of reform and revolution. I hope we can take it up in the upcoming weeks…

3. We also see the right&#039;s willingness to use extra-parliamentary forces/ its grassroots to shape the debate with the help of Fox News and others of course.  I believe it was Louis Proyect at The Unrepentant Marxist who pointed out that this is because the right has such a narrow base in this country. It has to draw out some spectacle of support in the public sphere.  Meanwhile, the Democrats whose ever eroding base was the unions and remnants of the 1960s movements is terrified of mobilizing this base in case they get out of control. Instead, they do as much of their politics via backdoor. 

I do think different periods can radically recompose the Democrats where their behavior might change, but their trajectory over the last 35 years does not point to such a direction.

4. In terms of race, I have a feeling many pocs are thinking that Obama cannot say what he really wants to say cuz of the position he is in. They are cutting him slack. I wonder when people will say &quot;fine&quot;if he can&#039;t speak cuz of the position he is in, we gotta go out there and fight for him.&quot;  That will be something we have not seen in years in this country. Perhaps this is an overestimation of how much support Obama had and has. I know his numbers have been tumbling like nothing else this summer, but if all those people coming out to the streets when he got elected was not a dream, then I gotta wonder what that night meant and when they will come out to fight the racists and elites who are attacking &quot;their president&quot;. 

I also find it hard to believe that young pocs and other progressives are not taking note of what is happening at these town hall meetings. They are watching rowdy angry white people take the national stage. Can the right flirt with this and not create a round of left-reaction? Will pocs do the same in the upcoming months. 

Will</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post and comments.  </p>
<p>1. I also see the continued polarization of the country along left and right axis. Although Obama is putting a cover on the left dimensions of the polarization, all cannot be blamed on him either. The reality is, as others have pointed out, some responsibility has to be placed at the left&#8217;s door. Regardless, continued polarization is possible given continued economic crisis or political crisis along the Afghanistan or Iraq war lines.  Things might look radically different in terms of the point I am raising if any one or several of these problems for the rulers are resolved.</p>
<p>2. Polarization poses opportunities for the revolutionary left and immense dangers.  The dangers are the beginnings of these rallies. For now, I think they can be categorized as the right intimidating progressive forces and the left. I believe they have done an effective job with the help of Obama. The latter is a reference to millions of people giving Obama a chance during his presidency. </p>
<p>While the right controls much of the university, government, and education space; I do believe it has less control in an organized and political sense on the ground. I understand this to mean that the country is not going to the right or left. It is up for grabs right now. With the right (in Republican or Democrat form) in governmental power, they are responsible for failings of the economy, war in Afghanistan etc which also lends to anti-State possibilities.  Unfortunately, the right has taken up this fight as well leaving me to wonder if Anarchists or left-libertarians will pose alternative to state-led healthcare or free-market healthcare at these protests and try to enter local or regional level debates.</p>
<p>For the revolutionary left, polarization is a symptom of immense crisis where the possibility of mild reforms solving the problems of the day are less and less likely. Instead, reforms which must be fought for at the street, workplace, and our communities become a reality. The interaction of struggle, revolutionary politics, and winning reforms opens up the chance to radical politics, new types of organizations etc which can challenge the old ways of doing politics. These moments do not come often in history.</p>
<p>This still leaves the question of the precise or concrete relationship of reform and revolution. I hope we can take it up in the upcoming weeks…</p>
<p>3. We also see the right&#8217;s willingness to use extra-parliamentary forces/ its grassroots to shape the debate with the help of Fox News and others of course.  I believe it was Louis Proyect at The Unrepentant Marxist who pointed out that this is because the right has such a narrow base in this country. It has to draw out some spectacle of support in the public sphere.  Meanwhile, the Democrats whose ever eroding base was the unions and remnants of the 1960s movements is terrified of mobilizing this base in case they get out of control. Instead, they do as much of their politics via backdoor. </p>
<p>I do think different periods can radically recompose the Democrats where their behavior might change, but their trajectory over the last 35 years does not point to such a direction.</p>
<p>4. In terms of race, I have a feeling many pocs are thinking that Obama cannot say what he really wants to say cuz of the position he is in. They are cutting him slack. I wonder when people will say &#8220;fine&#8221;if he can&#8217;t speak cuz of the position he is in, we gotta go out there and fight for him.&#8221;  That will be something we have not seen in years in this country. Perhaps this is an overestimation of how much support Obama had and has. I know his numbers have been tumbling like nothing else this summer, but if all those people coming out to the streets when he got elected was not a dream, then I gotta wonder what that night meant and when they will come out to fight the racists and elites who are attacking &#8220;their president&#8221;. </p>
<p>I also find it hard to believe that young pocs and other progressives are not taking note of what is happening at these town hall meetings. They are watching rowdy angry white people take the national stage. Can the right flirt with this and not create a round of left-reaction? Will pocs do the same in the upcoming months. </p>
<p>Will</p>
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		<title>By: Mamos</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2009/09/21/thoughts-on-a-health-care-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Mamos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=460#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I agree with Afrose, the Left dropped the ball on this one.  Unfortunately our own circles have not yet &quot;gathered enough forces&quot; to make a decisive intervention.  But it&#039;s been depressing to see more established Left groups actively downplaying the white populist element of these right wing attacks on Obama.  Sure many of these right wing groups are &quot;astroturf&quot; in the sense that they&#039;re funded by millionaires but that doesn&#039;t&#039; mean that they aren&#039;t tapping into real grassroots, populist outrage.... and grassroots populist outrage is volatile, it can become more of an organized right wing insurgency if new organizations and coalitions start to form among various far-right single issue groups.   If we don&#039;t organize to put a stop to it now, we could see attacks on people of color, queer folks, and immigrants sooner than we might expect. 

It&#039;s the same thing with the whole Gay Marriage debate.  Many of us on the Left aren&#039;t thrilled about the prospects of gay marriage because it threatens to assimilate vibrant queer communities into the straightjacket of the capitalist nuclear family.  But at the same time, we gotta recognize that the Right is mobilizing behind the anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives, and many of the groups that are building their cadres through this type of work also into anti-immigrant white supremacist activity.  We need to organize to confront this now.  With both  the health care debate and the gay marriage debate we need to figure out a concrete way to intervene where folks are at and to smash the right WITHOUT entering into a popular front to support the liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Afrose, the Left dropped the ball on this one.  Unfortunately our own circles have not yet &#8220;gathered enough forces&#8221; to make a decisive intervention.  But it&#8217;s been depressing to see more established Left groups actively downplaying the white populist element of these right wing attacks on Obama.  Sure many of these right wing groups are &#8220;astroturf&#8221; in the sense that they&#8217;re funded by millionaires but that doesn&#8217;t&#8217; mean that they aren&#8217;t tapping into real grassroots, populist outrage&#8230;. and grassroots populist outrage is volatile, it can become more of an organized right wing insurgency if new organizations and coalitions start to form among various far-right single issue groups.   If we don&#8217;t organize to put a stop to it now, we could see attacks on people of color, queer folks, and immigrants sooner than we might expect. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same thing with the whole Gay Marriage debate.  Many of us on the Left aren&#8217;t thrilled about the prospects of gay marriage because it threatens to assimilate vibrant queer communities into the straightjacket of the capitalist nuclear family.  But at the same time, we gotta recognize that the Right is mobilizing behind the anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives, and many of the groups that are building their cadres through this type of work also into anti-immigrant white supremacist activity.  We need to organize to confront this now.  With both  the health care debate and the gay marriage debate we need to figure out a concrete way to intervene where folks are at and to smash the right WITHOUT entering into a popular front to support the liberals.</p>
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		<title>By: Afrose</title>
		<link>http://gatheringforces.org/2009/09/21/thoughts-on-a-health-care-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Afrose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gatheringforces.org/?p=460#comment-45</guid>
		<description>What Lauren mentions about the lack of a Left presence at these town halls is right on. When the town hall forums were in swing during August, it seemed as if most of the revolutionary Left downplayed the importance of the popular movement from the Right. It is unclear how much of the momentum is grassroots and how much is &quot;astroturf&quot; but if there is no radical alternative perspective present at these rallies, they may only grow stronger and attract more participants. Particularly in light of the very effective rhetoric of the Right. Imagine a young woman with feminist leanings attending a rally where the Right coopts &quot;My Body, My Choice&quot; for their own purposes. When there is no opposition to point out how opportunist the Right is (among other things), they can blur the lines between resistance to state power and using the state to wage war against working people of color. 

The Balance Sheet on Obama and the Left  post by mlove highlights much of the debate around Obama within the Left and the importance of the millions of young people of color that Obama was able to mobilize during his campaign. In light of what he as a black man means to much of America (despite what he actually represents, the interests of the ruling classes) it was hard for me to see pictures of him with a Hitler mustache superimposed on his face. The forces that have mobilized against healthcare &quot;reform&quot; are clearly racist, and we have a president and Democratic party that shies from the mention of race and no organized presence from the revolutionary left. 

So as to not end on a depressing note, I do think that this moment offers many possibilities. Being on a campus and seeing the reaction to the first wave of budget cuts in places like the Bay Area and Seattle have been inspiring. All those folks who found that the idea of &quot;real change&quot; resonated with them and moved in order to support the man who promised it to them, all those folks are still here and see what&#039;s happening. The healthcare debate opened up a can of worms. We&#039;ll see where we go from here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Lauren mentions about the lack of a Left presence at these town halls is right on. When the town hall forums were in swing during August, it seemed as if most of the revolutionary Left downplayed the importance of the popular movement from the Right. It is unclear how much of the momentum is grassroots and how much is &#8220;astroturf&#8221; but if there is no radical alternative perspective present at these rallies, they may only grow stronger and attract more participants. Particularly in light of the very effective rhetoric of the Right. Imagine a young woman with feminist leanings attending a rally where the Right coopts &#8220;My Body, My Choice&#8221; for their own purposes. When there is no opposition to point out how opportunist the Right is (among other things), they can blur the lines between resistance to state power and using the state to wage war against working people of color. </p>
<p>The Balance Sheet on Obama and the Left  post by mlove highlights much of the debate around Obama within the Left and the importance of the millions of young people of color that Obama was able to mobilize during his campaign. In light of what he as a black man means to much of America (despite what he actually represents, the interests of the ruling classes) it was hard for me to see pictures of him with a Hitler mustache superimposed on his face. The forces that have mobilized against healthcare &#8220;reform&#8221; are clearly racist, and we have a president and Democratic party that shies from the mention of race and no organized presence from the revolutionary left. </p>
<p>So as to not end on a depressing note, I do think that this moment offers many possibilities. Being on a campus and seeing the reaction to the first wave of budget cuts in places like the Bay Area and Seattle have been inspiring. All those folks who found that the idea of &#8220;real change&#8221; resonated with them and moved in order to support the man who promised it to them, all those folks are still here and see what&#8217;s happening. The healthcare debate opened up a can of worms. We&#8217;ll see where we go from here.</p>
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